Disney Vacation Club’s “Point Pool Problem”
Due to the multi-month closure of DVC resorts and low demand following Walt Disney World’s reopening coupled with banking rules, Disney Vacation Club has a “point pool problem” and limited availability. Here we’ll address DVC’s policies and why availability is so limited for the 50th Anniversary and beyond. (Updated July 12, 2022.)
During the closure, Disney Vacation Club made temporary adjustments to certain policies, adding flexibility to its normal rules. Notably, DVC extended some point expiration windows for one year from the current expiration date and relaxed cancellation rules. Standard policies were long ago reinstated, but the impact of those rule changes plus the closure has resulted in availability challenges that will reverberate for years.
Attempting to remedy this, Disney Vacation Club limited point borrowing. Members who want to borrow points to complete a reservation were temporarily only be able to borrow up to 50% of their future Use Year Points per contract. Doing this has helped manage inventory and accommodate more Members who want to schedule their vacations for the next couple of years.
July 12, 2022 Update: Effective today, Disney Vacation Club has removed the aforementioned borrowing limit. Here’s the email that went out to DVC members:
At Disney Vacation Club, we know that flexibility is top of mind when it comes to planning your vacations with us. From accommodation types and length of stay to planning for multiple trips per year, we know you appreciate a variety of options.
With that in mind, our team is pleased to share that you are once again able to borrow your full allotment of Vacation Points from your next Use Year to this Use Year.
Eligible Members are also able to use their points for Disney Collection exchange experiences such as, Disney Cruise Line, National Geographic Expeditions, Adventures by Disney or Star Wars: Galactic Starcruiser.
Now that we’re past the booking window for the popular holiday season at Walt Disney World, this was a logical change to make. While it’s likely that residual effects of the point pool problem will spill over into 2023, the worst of it is likely in the rearview mirror. Most points that could’ve been used during the closure or subsequent early stages of the reopening would be long gone by now–even those that were banked.
With that said, this point pool problem is a bit like the accordion effect with traffic jams. A lack of availability last year led to banking into this year resulting in a lack of availability leading to more banking–and so forth and so on. Of course, there are also the longstanding issues of supply and demand mismatches. (We won’t fixate on that point here, as it’s something covered in our Why is Disney Vacation Club Availability So Limited? post several years ago. Actually, what’s covered here is somewhat of an outgrowth of that discussion. The same ideas apply as there.)
In any case, the worst of the point pool problem has resolved itself, and Disney Vacation Club has restored normal point borrowing policies as a result. That’s really all you need to know for practical purposes, but if you’re wondering how we got to this point, the following explains issue and crunches the numbers of DVC points v. inventory…
If my math is correct, there’s a total of roughly 75.85 million Disney Vacation Club points across all units at all resorts, including the ones outside of Walt Disney World. However, that includes undeclared points, including over 4 million at Disney’s Riviera Resort. That means the actual number in circulation is likely just shy of 70 million points.
It’s important to include the non-WDW resorts like Aulani, Hilton Head Island, Vero Beach, and the Grand Californian in this analysis, as those supplies of points do impact demand at Walt Disney World resorts (VGC much less so than the other three).
Essentially, we have a scenario where the entirety of Disney Vacation Club points represent the water in a pool, and the entire inventory of DVC rooms represent the pool itself. Normally, the water comes pretty close to filling the pool, with a bit of space at the top.
Now imagine lifting up all of that water, losing a bit to splashing, shrinking the size of the physical pool by ~25%, and then attempting to deposit the water back into the pool. You couldn’t. There’s now more water than there is physical space in the pool, meaning over 20% would overflow and be gone forever. (Well, since we’re talking about water, it’d actually evaporate or soak into the ground, but you get the idea.)
If that’s too conceptual, let’s explain with a simplified example. Let’s assume one of the DVC resorts at Walt Disney World has 12 million points (none do–bear with me). Setting aside borrowing and banking rules, which tend to normalize over the course of time, that means 1 million points are available and must be used during each month of the year.
If a resort were closed for two months, the 2 million points of room inventory from that period are gone forever. However, the supply of outstanding points is not. This means that the available unused points for the year exceeds room availability by millions of points.
This is precisely what happened during the closure of Walt Disney World. Compounding that, even when the DVC resorts reopened a few months later, demand did not return. To the contrary, occupancy rates were historically low. Rooms were sitting empty even as the outstanding supply of points didn’t simply evaporate. Hence the pool example, and also why it’s going to be incredibly slim pickins’ for DVC availability the next couple of years.
The closure actually ended up being the smaller of the issues. The significantly larger problem was that Disney Vacation Club resorts were not operating at anywhere close to their normal occupancy rate for many months after reopening, and last minute cancellations become the norm. There were essentially 7 months of low bookings and ample availability at every single resort.
We know this because we were frequently able to book last minute reservations at some of Disney Vacation Club’s most popular resorts and room categories. Options that, in a normal year, would’ve been totally gone at or before the 7 month mark. From Summer 2020 through Spring 2021, there was often wide-open availability only a few days in advance.
Above is a look at availability when we searched for the holidays at the end of last October. You would never see this many options in a normal year only a few weeks before the start of the holiday season. By contrast, if you’re currently searching for availability in the next 3 months–or even in early 2023–there’s very little availability. Thankfully, it’s starting to get better, but still is not back to normal.
In the months after reopening, most DVC resorts were likely lucky to crack 50% occupancy. It improved around Christmas, worsened in January and February 2021, and didn’t really return to normal until Spring Break. Bookings have been sky-high since last summer.
The lack of demand last year followed by off-the-charts demand this year is something that shouldn’t be surprising. After all, we’ve been discussing pent-up demand and “revenge travel” to Walt Disney World for a while, and there still seems to be a lot of pent-up demand thanks to international travel and those who cancelled trips last year, too. Those ideas apply equally to DVC as they do Walt Disney World as a whole. Yet, we didn’t factor that into our original analysis.
Throughout a normal year, Disney Vacation Club resort occupancy is around 95%, which higher than standard hotel rooms at Walt Disney World, and doesn’t fluctuate much at all based upon travel seasons or most external variables. While we don’t know the precise DVC occupancy rate last year, we can say with confidence based upon frequent room availability searches that they almost never came close to that number.
This is because many Disney Vacation Club members opted to bank points and postpone trips with the intent to take them the following year. In particular, Walt Disney World’s 50th Anniversary looks pretty attractive to a lot of members. In a nutshell, this is the problem facing Disney Vacation Club right now–way more demand than there is supply, and a surplus of points from the last couple of years that now need to be used in 2022 before they expire.
This, in turn, is having a ripple effect. Those scrambling to use the surplus of “old” points from the last couple years are grabbing up availability in 2022, which will then cause current points to be banked and used in 2023. Again, think of this as similar to the accordion effect that causes traffic jams to persist on highways long after the underlying condition that caused the initial slowdown has been remedied. (A more timely example would be with supply chain disruptions.)
Editor’s Note: The second half of this post previously contained extensive discussion about how Walt Disney World could “solve” this point pool problem by allowing Disney Vacation Club members to use their points at non-DVC hotels, which were experiencing low occupancy. This commentary has been removed for a couple of reasons.
First, because Disney Vacation Club clearly has no intentions of doing this. Second, because I was wrong–it would not have solved anything. Disney Vacation Club units were not filling up, regardless. By the time DVC demand picked up, so too had hotel demand, so there would have been a significant opportunity cost. To that latter point, hotels are still facing very similar issues, albeit with their own unique wrinkles. See What’s Up with Sold Out Hotels at Walt Disney World? (Which should also indirectly explain why Disney has no interest in offering up non-DVC rooms to fix inventory issues.)
Ultimately, there is no solution to the lack of Disney Vacation Club availability, which is why we repeatedly and strongly encouraged other members to burn as many of their points as possible when the resorts first reopened and not bank points. At this juncture, all you can really do is book as early as possible, be flexible with your travel dates and/or accommodations preferences, and be willing to do split stays. Availability is not going to get any better anytime soon.
This is going to be a problem for the remainder of 2022, and likely into 2023. About the only other “fix” is the status quo, which is essentially to restrict borrowing rules. That helps a little bit, but it does not address the underlying issue of there being more unused points than available rooms. Legally, there’s nothing more they’re required to do. Owners agreed to the rules of the game when buying, and we are the ones positioned to eat the loss. For continued updates in this ongoing DVC point pool saga, subscribe to our free email newsletter.
If you’re thinking about joining DVC, be sure to read our Ultimate Guide to Disney Vacation Club. This covers the pros & cons, resale v. direct, how much money you’ll save, and other important things to know before taking the plunge. If you still can’t decide whether membership is right for you, “try before you buy” with the recommendations in How to Save BIG on Deluxe Disney Accommodations Renting DVC Points.
YOUR THOUGHTS
Have you had issues finding availability for trips to Walt Disney World in late 2022 or beyond? Think this is going to be an ongoing issue throughout 2022 and even into 2023? Do you have any ideas as to other possible solutions to this Disney Vacation Club point pool problem? Have you lost points as a result of this? Had trouble finding DVC availability for later this year? Other complaints about Member Services or anything else DVC-related? Do you agree or disagree with our assessment? If you’re an existing Member, what do you think? Share any questions, tips, or additional thoughts you have in the comments!
I want Aulani next summer. Because of my concern with 7 month availability, I arranged to “trade” my home resort privileges with an Aulani owner. Just so we can both book at 11 months.
Admittedly, I don’t pay a ton of attention to Aulani availability, but it still sounds like a pretty smart move to me!
As a non-DVC owner, but one who has repeatedly looked into it, I don’t think I’ve seen a single article on the pros and cons of timeshare ownership flag this as a risk that must be factored into the cost of ownership. But it clearly is one, and while with hotels the risk of closure and periods of decreased demand falls on them, with timeshares the risk falls on the owner.
I don’t think the proposed solution is necessarily acceptable, because hotel demand will surge at the same time as DVC demand. Apportioning those rooms to DVC has a tangible cost associated in foregone revenue; admittedly revenue at the lowest marginal base but that’s still “real money”. Disney doesn’t really need the goodwill of existing members because they won’t be buying more points directly; any further purchases will likely be via resale. And the vast majority (75%?) of new purchasers are drawn in by the flashy booths and DVDs, and not by a calculated estimation of the benefits or past behaviour. Of the 25% who will be deterred, many will assume the pandemic is a one off (hopefully they’re right) and discounts on sale are a much cheaper way of convincing those on the fence than doing “right” by their members right now.
I suspect Disney is currently saying nothing to encourage use while things are quiet. Once a new higher base resumes I wonder if the better approach will be to temporarily increase the number of points required to book by an amount that ensures the resorts will not be over capacity over a future multiple year term. If carrying forward were allowed the increase wouldn’t need to be that eye watering to fairly quickly bring points back within capacity. That would evenly spread the losses rather than turning it into a lottery (apart from those who got in early and already “won”, but using points right now while things are quiet and hotels are extra cheap is hardly “winning”, anyway).
They can’t just flip flop points values for rooms at their will. They should charge more money to a cash paying guests. Supply & demand. Points are finite. They have already made “adjustments” to address the excess not being used. We are actually deeded the property. That’s why Disney had to open to DVC, basically we own the property, therefore they couldn’t keep us from it. As far as new sales, not a current owner problem. I’m concerned about what I pay for.
[posted to wrong article, re-posting]
While the loss of 3 months to closure is a DVC point problem, the bigger problem is simply everyone pushing back travel…
1 – only points that were actually booked for travel during the closure were extended. With banked 2018 points extended to November 2020. So those points must still be used by November 2020…
2 – A lot of people are having no choice already but to let their points expire (or try to rent them out), if they don’t want to travel right now. So not all those points will become part of the problem. (Basically, at most, 25% of 1 year’s worth of points got extended, but people having to let their points simply expire is currently acting as a counterpoint. And many of those extended points will still expire over the next 11 months).
3 – The bigger part of the problem may not just be the extended closure points, but simply people delaying the use of their points. 2020 likely had far greater than average banking of points. So 2021 will become use or lose all those banked points. And many people, especially early 2021 use years, may already be banking into 2022.
What this adds up to…. when things start to normalize, there will likely be a crush of DVC owners using banked points. The crush won’t likely start until travel normalizes more. But …. second half of 2021 through 2022 might be insane, as all those banked points mature.
Which brings us to the solution of dumping hotels rooms into DVC – But as things normalize… I’ve never been under the impression that Disney sits on loads of empty rooms. My impression was they mix discounts and pin codes to keep occupancy rates quite high, year round. Hotel income may drop as they need to offer bigger discounts to book those rooms. But does Disney ever really sit on loads of *empty* rooms during normal operations? And business-wise, probably makes more sense for Disney to rent a room at 40% off, as opposed to giving it to DVC. Sure, empty rooms may abound in first half of 2021, but do we expect loads of empty regular hotel rooms by the time of Disney’s 50th Anniversary celebration?
I’d suggest a solution for DVC is to temporarily extend the banking period – allow banking for 18-24 months, instead of just 1 year. Thus, spreading out the unused points over a longer period. Perhaps with even tighter restrictions against borrowing points.
You can fine tune this by offering it as a special during certain periods, forcing people to decide whether to bank into longer term. (Example — For the limited time of March 2021, you can bank any current use year points for 2 years instead of the normal 1 year, but you won’t be able to use those points for 2 years. — this wouldn’t be super popular, but the goal isn’t to get everyone to take advantage. Just get a percentage of people to shift their points further, so you spread the point issue out over a longer period of time).
Alternatively, another creative solution would be a way to encourage use of points OUTSIDE of DVC – Jumpstart DCL cruises in 2021 by offering a very generous point-trade value. Same with “Adventures by Disney.”
Right now, the trade values for those things are insanely bad. But a big promotion, you may get people to pull their points out of the WDW resort map.
Maybe create some new ways for guests to use their points – Use them at Galactic Starcruiser! Imagine the potential marketing: “With the Grand Opening of the Galactic Starcruiser coming December 1st (or whenever), we have decided to reward our most loyal guests! The first “soft open” voyages of the Starcruiser in November 2020 will be reserved solely for DVC guests! (at an insane point value).
You’re forgetting about the members who can’t even enter the country. Canadians, British, etc. when that happens, it’s going to be even tougher to use points. Everyone trying all at once.
As a VGC owner, it’s been an interesting year, and I think your points (ha!), though mostly WDW-centric, are even more applicable to there. Our points for our October 2020 vacation were completely refunded, and I was able to book two trips, one for summer 2021 and one for October 2021, figuring that they’d be safe bets. With VGC still not open and the crazy numbers in LA right now, I’m starting to think I was wrong. We live in CA, and since I doubt we’ll be comfortable flying in 2021 unless things change drastically, we’re stuck using those points at VGC.
I know this reply is a long time after the original post but I think Lauren’s point is becoming a very peculiar and interesting question!
I am also a VGC owner and we are now going on, what? 9 or 10 months of closure and considering California’s current state of COVID-19 measures, it will likely be a solid 12months+ before VGC opens.
I had a 4/2020 reservation that we considered moving to 10/2020. I quickly realized that any time mid-2020 wasn’t going to happen. I shifted plans to 2/2021 and as California trends toward closing rather than opening, I can’t imagine that VGC will open any time sooner than a full 12 months of closure.
The question then comes back to: what will happen with points that were not able to be used for 1-year+?? Our 4/2020 trip was using banked points from 2019 (three rooms). Even with an expiration extension, VGC will still not be open by the time that the points are set to expire.
Is the expectation that “you should use your home resort points for another DVC resort if you don’t want to lose them?”
I’m having a really hard time with this after paying a premium to purchase VGC points with very difficult availability in general and now facing the loss of a year’s worth of points.
I sold mine. Nothing is looking good at this rate for even entering California, at all. With the lack of ability to really use points or, with the new excesses I think we all have, rent them. I unloaded them. Sad decision, but I really didn’t have much other choice.
I have been a DVC member for 16 years. Last year I paid to stay on Port Orleans so I could bank my points to use on a bigger vacation this. I had three week booked from July.
I live in Ireland. At present my governement won’t let me out of the country nor will the US government let me in.
So on 2nd June I decided that I had waited long enough and cancelled the vacation. Disney will only just be opened when I was due to leave and I don’t even know if I’d get park tickets as a non resident.
So I called DVC member services to see what will happen with my points. It took my 56 monites to be answered on an international line. I was told my banked points and currnet use year points need to be used by end September or I will lose them all. My borrowed points will go back to next year.
So I asked to bank them and they said the window for banking had past 2 days previous buy my already banked point from last year will expire.
Here’s the thing: I have about a 10 weeks window becuase schools will open here in Auhust and I have 2 kids. At present I can’t travel so can’t make any arrnagements.
So, I am set to lose 2 years of points!
I protested to the rep at Disney and was promsied a call back from a manger but no call has happened.
I am gobsmacked – thsi is VERY sharp practice when neither Disney, not the country of its incorporation will allow me to use the points.
Several $1000 of hard earned money on memebrship fees wasted.
Any advice on what I should do. I am very upset!
I have travelled from Ireland to Disney 19 times in the last 20 years for an annual vacation.
HELP !!!
You might want to email [email protected]. Give them the details, let them know your situation that you cannot travel because of regulations. Hopefully, they will allow you to bank those points. Good luck.
Call back! Ask to speak to supervisor IMMEDIATELY. Seriously. That’s not right, at all. They can do anything once. I implore you to call again. A first line rep told me no, b/c my points were 2019 for Riviera. August use Year, they didn’t open until December…my banking window passed. A supervisor banked Then forward for me in 3 seconds. Good luck.
We’ve been to WDW three times since March. Just finishing up a family trip now. The lack of some of our favorite restaurants is made up for by the lack of crowds, no annoying South American tour groups or competition groups, and the ability to ride whatever rides we want to with a relatively short wait.
We lost a total of 29 points. Quite acceptable under the circumstances.
What frustrates me are people who rent their points. I understand that you feel that you “own” those points and can rent them instead of using them personally, however, when I can’t get a room in my resort, yet people who aren’t DVC get in, it really frustrates me. We all take a spin of the wheel in what is available and whether it matches up with our plans, but we need to level the playing field for a year.
I think Disney could solve this by suspending rentals for the next year, so that all of us owners have a chance to use points that are expiring, then, if the demand is there, allow rentals again. That way we all have an equal chance of going.
I actually wrote an email to Disney brass on just that subject and was amazed when I got an unsolicited call from a Disney VP. We had an excellent discussion on that subject and, although I it was all off the record, I think some changes are in the wind!
I just wish they would also do something for the DVC families that had trips booked in May with points expiring the end of May (June use year) that had no choice but to put in RCI or just lose them – unfortunately I also understand that some people with April use year may not even of had the 45 day option to put in RCI – but if we had a crystal ball we could have banked those points In the appropriate window and while an “exception” was made to return the borrowed points there was no exception on the expiring points only to say they are evaluating the banking and expiration policy – so it would also be nice if we could have another option to use that RCI to say stay at some Disney Resort property even if not a DVC property taking the suggestion above a step further – I know we’ve been DVC members from almost the start and before that going to Disney World ever since it opened – we had a very special trip planned at Kadani and 3 young boys counting the days til they would be in a room with animals out their windows and now have to use RCI which honestly is not in any way exciting – it’s just hard to go from being so excited about a trip for so long to so sad – anyway thanks for listening- maybe it will lead to some other options in their evaluation process
It would be amazing if they changed that policy, because I agree. Owners not getting 1st dibs on availability SUCKS.
I think the practice should be banned altogether!
Disney could solve the whole thing by extending the contracts of those who had a booking during the time frame when they were closed. Add a year to the contracts and the booking issue becomes irrelevant.
What hope is there for a non-dvc owner who rented points for April 1-4 2020? LOL
The only response I’ve seen from the company I went through is that the member whose points I rented (but could not use, due to the closure) must be willing to work with me – thats it. Meanwhile, last I checked the amount of dedicated reservations for rent for April and May 2020 were astronomical on their site. Seems unethical to list these for sale if a person can’t really use them. Oh and because they’re dedicated dates, there is no room for protection – all sales final! What a fine how do you do.
@ NETC Nothing. If you rented with a “no refund” that’s it. There’s no recourse. I rent my points out if they are leftover, but I’m willing to change dates, etc. even refund money. The company would refund it to the original renter. I could potentially get other rentals. I’m willing to even refund the money because I don’t want to lose points overall. Bottom line is my bottom line. I’m really sorry that this happened to anyone who rented from a company, especially a reputable one. FYI If you hadn’t noticed DVC hasn’t given members any real answers, rental companies certainly do t have answers. I would imagine they want to remain in good standing with renters & members as it’s profitable for them.
Current year points need to be used before end of use year or they can be banked into RCI for two years. Borrowed points are returned.
I would like to think DVC will offer some compensation. If people are being offered Park Hoppers for a stalled Skyliner ride I would hope they would do more for our shattered dream vacations. Very sad that RCI is our only alternative given our June use year.
The Skyliner was Disney’s fault. The Virus is Not!
@ Don. One does not pay for services NOT rendered. Troll elsewhere.
I am a Dvc member who may be impacted as I have an early June reservations. I agree, Disney could take my banked points that will expire August 2020 (I have an August use year) and allow me 12 months to use them in a Disney hotel, non Dvc resort. But my bigger sticking point isn’t the banked points that I have an issue losing, it’s my current use year points that they are saying will expire due to missing the banking deadline (March 31st for August use year). These points should be able to be banked. I am still in my current use year. In their calculations of points, they take into account banking points, so the technicality of I missed the deadline shouldn’t come into play. And the reality, banked points expire in a year and there is a good chance I won’t be able to use all those points anyway and they will expire, but at least Dvc tried to accomodate their members. And if they are worried about an overview of points, then don’t allow the non Orlando based properties to be used for a Orlando reservation (example – if they bank vero Beach points, then I cant use those vero banked to stay at bay lake.) Not forever, but just for the people impacted by corona. As you said, the cash buyer gets 100% refund, we take a lose. As you stated lots of Dvc members are like myself, the person who buys the extras, deluxe dining, special event tickets, etc…. the ones who have a vested interest. It’s thanks to the Dvc Members that they can continue to build hotels and expand (what was the last non Dvc hotel built?), they need to step up and show we matter and not stand by the logistics of what’s in our contracts. Everyone is a loser during this time, but Disney needs to show they care.
To be fair, you had an opportunity to bank your current use year points in March when all this was happening. Your banking window was still open when Disney closed the parks indefinitely. The only people who have a real gripe regarding their current use year points are those with June use years. Those people’s banking window had already passed (January 31st) when the parks were closed. Anyone with August or later use years was rolling the dice by not cancelling their reservations and banking their points. People in that situation can’t cry foul now if the parks stay closed longer and they lose their points. They gambled…and lost.
I disagree. This isn’t about people rolling the dice or trying to outsmart Disney. For starters, in March when this was all happen at a rapid pace, people were worried about work, their kids school and the every day impact Corona was having, not to mention who was really thinking Disney would be closed for months. Disney themselves didn’t close day 1 and when they did, initially closed until April 1st. It wasn’t until days before, did they come out with they are closed indefinitely. In fact, if you call them today, even for the people that have April and May reservations, they are only cancelling them out a week before. They are the ones saying they are working on reservations after June 1st. I am sure Disney would not have wanted everyone with a August UY that has a May, June, July reservations to be calling up in March when this first happen to cancel just to be sure that our bankable points are banked before the March 31st deadline. Doesn’t it make more sense, Disney should be the one saying, lets roll the dice here, if your reservation is canceled, we will bank your 2019 UY points if the deadline was missed? The same way they are telling the cash buyer, there is no penalty for canceling last minute or where they are waiving fees for people that bought park passes, after all, tickets are non refundable, but yet they are doing it. Same way they are extending all AP holders regardless if they have a reservation during this time or not. Why would a person who has an AP and no plans during the closure get their AP extended? For Disney benefit, that’s why. They realize people with AP may go since their pass is still good. And i dont mean the local who might drive there for the day. I live in NJ, why would they extend my pass, hoping ill decide to come down. Bottom line, these points are bankable, i am not asking to do anything out the realm of what is in our contract, what i am asking is due to the circumstances to extend the deadline to be able to bank my points, epsecially since they are closed. DVC needs to make it right for their loyal members. Maybe if everyone stuck together and complained, they would change their policy on the banking deadline. In the end, maybe your membership isn’t impacted by this the way some others are, but that doesn’t mean that you cant support others. You hear a lot of people in the same boat, which means Disney needs to address it. Not do what’s only good for Disney. And if you read between the lines here on all their press releases, the timing of how and when they release the information and what they are telling members about the future, Disney only has one thing on their mind, worrying about Disney!
@john d
Use the contact button in the member website. Be specific with what your concerns are. You will get an actual contact person. More power in numbers is correct and I even forgot about international members. DVC really needs to make it right. I’ve made my money on everything but my new points.
There seems to be some power in the pen!
I tried emailing from the member website earlier today and I wasn’t able to send it.
@Jack. I don’t make a profit from renting some extra points. I see your point. Technically if you profit, you gotta pay the tax man. I just get what I need.
@ Jackie. You only pay the tax man if you are a DVC owner that lives in the US and uses a USA based rental company. 😉
@bob utilities? I live in NYC. Maybe NY state is different. But, if utilities are not used, they are less. ie thousands of rooms without occupants are not using electricity. No one washing hands or taking showers is significantly less water usage. I don’t know if they use natural gas other than in the restaurants, but they’re closed too. So WHAT utilities have stayed the same or increased without guests? I would say they’re pretty nominal right now.
We are in the ROFR part of a DVC buy that of course as part of the deal, included banked points. So imagine that where a contract was signed during this that included banked points….not happy if we lose those but everyone I guess is in the same boat here.
The difference is that you didn’t pay the maintenance fees for those banked points. They are “free”, so to speak. You won’t start paying maintenance fees until next year. So if you lose those banked points it’s not really like someone else losing banked points for which they paid the maintenance fees.
The thing with all of this, is there are so many complications. Many members reside outside of the USA. There may be travel bans imposed for a long time to come. Are those members to be penalized for further circumstances beyond their control? The last thing a cleared area wants is people bringing it back in and causing another lock down. We already see LA and NY City governments saying no sporting events until 2021. Unlikely then that Disneyland will be open until that time as well. Orlando will have to monitor ever so carefully as to not become a sudden hot spot.
Sure DVC can do nothing, but does one really think that will go unnoticed and without an incredible social media back-lash and future on-site back lashing? We have seen them back track on some policies in the past once members started to make noise and prepare legal responses. Those were pale in comparison to this. Be confident they will do “something” to some of their most beloved Disney fans.
@Mike
You mean “Beloved cash cows, don’t you?” LOL
We DVC members are guaranteed income. I’ve read some interesting analyses of how Disney plays the cost increase and money game. Essentially they keep turning the screws until enough people yell “Ouch,” then they back off a bit, wait awhile and. . . . . wash, rinse, repeat. Remember, there are literally billions of people out there who have never been to or dealt with Disney before, thus what some of us feel is excessive is what they come aboard to without complaint because they have no frame of reference. You think they keep building properties like Riviera on spec?
@ Jack. True to a point. I would also argue that there are billions of people who look at the pricing even before the recent gouge levels of the last 5 years and will NEVER step foot on Disney. They have discovered there is a large world out there to discover with their families and Disney is merely a spec of dust of what is available to families.
@Mike
Still leaves a huge, untapped pool of people out there, people with money enough to crowd Disney venues to the point of suffocation at times. That’s all it takes. Wife and I were there into the early March beginnings of the incipient virus panic. Place was mobbed!
The present situation may alter things somewhat but IMHO the Mouse will wait it out. Back off a bit on present positions re points expiring, maybe, but then move forward. Remember, the Mouse has been stashing lots away in Unca Scrooge’s Money Bin for years. Very deep pockets! Lots of willing investors. And as Tom’s article pointed out, the Mouse is in a rather unpleasant points-heavy position at the moment. I’m betting he opts to take maximum PR pain for the shortest time, betting Disney can recover rapidly, rather than put up with protracted complaints over an extended period. For every member who forfeits their contract there will be lots willing to buy in.
And as I pointed out earlier, even with the parks closed Disney has raised some future food prices. Chutzpah much? So far I see no concern on Disney’s part. Do you?
@ Jack. Of course there is concern on their part. You make them out like complete misers. We have already seen when push comes to shove, they back off. How they deal with this can and I would argue will affect them in other areas of the business. People can live without Disney, but can Disney live without people and more importantly their money? Whether it is parks, movies, cruises, streaming services, people have the power, not the company. We can site some businesses where this has happened. If Disney wants to role the dice, go for it.
@Mike
The word you’re looking for is not miserly it’s greedy. And yeah.
@Mike I agree with @Jack. 18 years as a member & I have seen & heard everything. They already have our money , we’ve signed contracts, and if there are foreclosures, etc they claim it as loss, find a new buyer or rent for cash. So, they are greedy. Win, win for them. I’m a loyal member. I’ve had as many as 870 points. Different contracts. All direct buys. I met my husband there, we got married there. My son has a leader been 3 times. He’s only 14 months. I don’t leave the resort. I have no problem giving them my money. But right now, they need to make a lot of things right for members.
@ Jackie. Sounds like you need to grow some wings and move on from Disney then. You can easily sell and see the great big world out there or even explore parts of your own backyard you did not know exist. There is life without Disney and we are about to find out in a very obvious way. Not only is 2020 gone most of if not all of 2021 will be gone as well. To suggest that they are going to let everyone slide would be suicide for them regardless of how greedy they are.
@tom
Great ideas. I mentioned above they should suspend “good-neighbor” access until
This can be rectified. Curious, you make no mention of dues or loans/mortgages. Dues represent operating costs. There isn’t operation at this time. Security, grounds upkeep & pool maintenance. I think they should credit us that money for next year, at least.
I would be fine if they assigned a monetary number, say $15 a point, that you could apply towards purchasing an annual pass, park tickets or standard Disney Hotel rooms. But I DO Undrrstand this is a unique unforeseen situation. I’m expecting nothing but hoping Disney does something to give us the intrinsic value of the points which very well may be lost. I also think that this should apply to only those who had a vacation scheduled BEFORE this crisis and were directly impacted. Those who were waiting to do a “last minute” trip and roll the dice in a year when points were going to expire know what they are getting into. This would be fair to Disney and resolve the situation for those DIRECTLY impacted that had reservations before March 15, 2020. They are accepting June 1 reservations. Any of those, if impacted, should be included also if this continues
@Ren I disagree, we are an entire entity. Now the members who lost reservations will be competing for my “usual vacation time.” Why should everyone else be penalized?
Ren: Why would Disney give you credit for more than your annual fees? That’s the only cost that is equal among all members. Some paid $50 a point, some paid $180 a point. Just spread those costs out over the life of the contract. Disney Hotels would have to agree with offering their rooms to DVC members for no cash at all. I really don’t see that happening, but, who knows. I agree that any deals should only apply to people who lost points, not to those who want to get a deal. So if you couldn’t bank points because the reservation was cancelled. Not sure about the people using banked points. They already had at least 20 months to use their points. and didn’t.
@DebC no, we can factor in, except interest for a loan/mortgage every penny for every point, whether someone paid $50 or $210 per point. Take the total, divide by points, by the years of contact by month, by day. If someone has 75 points it’s not much of OKW it may not be much. 250 at Riviera, now your talking sone cash. Everything has a dollar value. And Disney knows it. You know they’re already adjust other prices for their losses? ie food cost.
@Karen: It is going to be tough finding dates for the fall since that is the busiest time of the year for DVC owners to go. Hope the owner you rented from can help you out with new dates.
@Jack – Disney Springs hotels have been offering FP+ and Extra Magic Hours for about a year or so. They do offer transportation to the theme parks, but it is usually pretty limited and there may be a charge to use it. They don’t have transportation to the MK, just the Ticket & Transportation Center. They don’t usually have the better bus stops at the theme parks and may have to park further out. They might only leave every 30-45 minutes or even less. Plus their first run and last run of the day may be later than the Disney transportation from the Disney hotels.
@DebC
Ticket and transport is a hub. Not a real problem. Most of the off site hotel transport I’ve seen was free.
IMO Disney needs to take radical steps to correct the DVC problems they’ve caused. Among them:
1. Eliminate FPs and Extra Magic for off site guests.
2. Shrink the DVC sale window from 60 to 30 days.
3. Retire points reobtained by foreclosure and maybe even buy back and retire secondary market points until Aulani has been neutralized
4. Open up more rooms to DVC.
5. Prohibit point “Renting.”
6. Stop building and selling additional DVC properties UNLESS they reduce points sold with them.
Of course none of this is going to be done as it takes away some of the Rodent’s cheese and we all know that just won’t happen.
It may also be in WDW’s interest to allow for extended stays in non-DVC accommodation because it will allow for more spending opportunities. For example, if members or renters are directed downwards in accommodation (i.e., from a deluxe to a moderate resort), then giving them more time to stay there will increase the amount of money they spend on Disney things. For example, if my 7 day stay at the Poly is converted into 11 days at French Quarter, then I will spend ~60% more on park tickets, food, etc than I would have in the course of my original stay. Of course this is all dependent, as Tom said, on those rooms remaining empty otherwise, but since this will most likely be the case, one could think of worse solutions. This is especially going to be true when considering that some services are not easily scalable, such as the personnel costs for food at resorts. If they are going to keep food service open, it needs to meet a certain threshold of revenue in order for it to do minimal basic operations.
Incidentally, Tom, when occupancy is down at WDW resorts, what level of resorts feel it the most (value, moderate, deluxe)? Is Pop Century going to be less affected because it is cheap (and amazing!), or will it be more affected because the standard cliental will be less likely to afford to go at all?
What is the Aulani folly?
@Heather
Reader’s Digest Version: The “Aulani Folly” was the creation of the Hawaii DVC Aulani resort. Essentially it is way under used and its associated points, which were sold at a supposedly mistakenly low price, are assumed to have flooded the stateside DVC market. It IS fixable but that would cost the mouse beaucoup cheese so they don’t bother.
While I’m sure that this contributes to the difficulty of DVC booking, there are other factors such as DVC members being allowed to sell unused points to non-DVC members, the 60 day non-use window wherein Disney can sell DVC rooms for cash to non-members that make DVC reservations difficult to get at times, but the multi-millions of unused Aulani home resort points out there surely don’t help.
Tom has written about this in far greater depth and detail but that’s basically it.
Add a year to the contracts and retire points as needed…act like there was no year 2020….this in effect increases the size of the pool and makes the customer whole.
Restore not retire
@ Mike. Great idea and might be the easiest solution moving forward as this things continue to evolve, it might be 12-18 months before we are back in the parks as we know it. Sorry, I ain’t walking around parks in July with a mask on. People passing out everywhere is not “merry”.
Add a year? They’d have to re-write EVERY contract and how does that help when my contracts expire when I’m 92?
The solutions outlined in the articles are far better for an immediate response.
@Mike
That could work, but I bet it would only happen if hotels are closed a whole year. I anticipate the hotels will open, possibly as soon as June 1st. The theme parks themselves is a different story though.
@ Jackie. Who says you don’t die next week from Covid19? It is a solution I could live with as someone down the line in my family will be able to use it.
I am one of the unfortunate souls who rented points from an owner for a May 9 check-in at Animal Kingdom Lodge. Communication from the owner has been very slow. I initially requested a search for new dates in late fall, but now just want to cancel and we will try again in 2021 or 2022. I respectfully requested a refund and am hopeful I haven’t lost the $1500 it cost me.
Back a few months having some time on my hands, I did some research on why the parks were getting so crowded and why DVC reservations were getting so difficult to get, and was very surprised to find that some of the close in chain hotels like Marriott, Hilton and Holiday Inns offer some really great WDW packages that include free transport to/from the hotel to the venue, and parks such as fast pass selection and extra magic hours. Some even include park tickets. The bonus here is that these hotels largely use their corporate cancellation policies so you’d probably stand a far better chance of a refund if you booked that way.
FULL DISCLOSURE: Although I travel extensively for business and am ver familliar with those types of reservation cancellation policies, I have never booked a Disney vacation package through an off-site hotel so don’t take my word for it. Do your own research, but in trying to get a refund I’d far rather deal directly with corporate hotel policies than an individual or some broker.
@Jack they should suspend that good neighbor nonsense altogether. It makes sense in DL, but not in WDW.
@ Karen. Which company did you rent from?
@Bill
We have been DVC members since the year after it started, which was1991 I think, so that would be 1992. We first purchased through Disney, then several on the secondary market before the restrictions kicked in. We have 6 home resorts.
My comment about deterioration is, simply put, the inability to book a desired date when, prior to the DVC resort explosion it was possible to do so within a few months of your intended stay. Now one is lucky to be able to get reservations in the 11 to 7 month window much less 2 to three months prior. People tend to blame this on Aulani and other off property venues. I’m not so sanguine about that. I’m not going to go into detail but just let me say that due to several internal and external influences, in my opinion the overall value of DVC membership for those who use it EXCLUSIVELY for their vacation use has markedly decreased.
@ Bill. Fair enough although we have never had issues getting what we want, mainly July/August and Xmas. You seem like a disgruntled DVC owner. Maybe time to sell it and move on to other vacations, no?
Karen we are in the same situation, we rented 2 rooms at Old Key West for our family. Our vacation was scheduled for early April, we are not getting any of our $5700 back due to the owners points expiring in May. I will never rent from DVC again, and will spread the word to others.
As much as I dislike a lot of the things DVC does I have to you quasi defend them here. You did NOT rent points from DVC, you either rented from a broker or directly from a member. DVC is in no way any part of your transaction. Read the part of the contract that spells this out.
https://i0.wp.com/dvcinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/DVC-Member-Right-To-RentL.png?ssl=1
I’m sorry you lost money on this, but as far as I’m concerned, renting DVC points should not be allowed. Family sharing, even friends using them is, in my opinion, fine, but a commercial transaction like this smacks too much of the points owner engaging in a for profit second tier business. While I’m sure this doesn’t bother many of you, it does me.
I rent out any extra points through David’s Vacation Club rentals. You rented from a member, not DVC. Totally different. I’m sorry that this is an unfortunate case. I imagine the owner is using your money for their dues. I can choose to give back the deposit to the guests who rented via David’s or I can hold onto my points & re-rent them, but the money will go back to the original renter. I will get the remainder from the new guest.
DVC DOES NOT rent points to anyone. Members can purchase a nominal amount to add to one time reservation. You can make a reservation at a DVC resort through the WDW travel company or other agency.
We are in a similar situation with a DVC reservation for a late March vacation. It was not disclosed that the use year ends in July. Now we either need to speak with our credit card company or sue them. Have you considered either option?
@ Jack. I disagree. For years we cannot go, we recoup the fees through a rental. No biggie. It does not matter who is using them. It makes no difference. The rooms are being used. It’s all semantics.
@Carol. That is a problem. Perhaps when this is all over, rental brokers will be forced to write new contracts where everyone is protected as much as they can be. The situation you are in is what I worry about happening well into next year. Even though we are going to bank our 2020 allocation (Feb, use year), we still have no idea when I go to rent something again for the folks that got cancelled, that they get cancelled again and the points will expire. It will be interesting, however, to see how DVC is going to handle points that were banked from 2020 (use year April +) if the place is not up and running properly by April 2021. People will have had zero opportunity to do anything with banked and potentially current year points.
@ Jackie. That is route we are going as well with David’s Rentals. We are not leaving the family without something. The problem is if this goes well into next year, I cannot even guarantee anything for the family if I have no control over expiring points that DVC will not alter due to covid-19.
@ Merideth. Did you rent from a DVC owner or rental company?
@Bill
If you can’t go once every three years then perhaps you shouldn’t have bought in? Not meant in a snarky way. Just seems logical. And in the banked points years you didn’t go the room would have been available to an actual member instead of a renter.
@Bill
Talk about “pompous. . . . .”
And one never can tell, can one?
Carol — the same thing has happened to my family. We rented a two bedroom at boulder ridge villas for May 23-29 plus 2 studios. We rented through DVC Rental Store. The fact that the hotel will be closed and we are not getting our money back is not okay in my opinion. I get it that they are just the go between the DVC member and us, but the member should be refunding money. his points expire at the end of July and it’s not feasible for us (nor do we think the parks will be open/fully operational) We didn’t issue our final payment yet, so we still have that money, but are out over $5,000.00. 🙁 This article helped me understand the reason why Disney isn’t doing more for the members right now and why members aren’t willing to reimburse those who they rented to. It’s just a bad situation for everyone involved.
There are lots of lessons to be learned for everyone here. Some are really financially painful and I have sympathy for those who have lost thousands of dollars. All I can say is that I never realized points sales were that prevalent. Maybe the answer going forward is to prohibit the brokerage of DVC points. Technically Disney could do this as, since at least the broker makes a commission and therefore a profit which would qualify it as a disallowed “commercial” points sale or rental transaction. Not a popular decision I’m sure, but they did put limitations on the use of contract resales so maybe they will do this as well. It certainly might take lots of points out of circulation although it might harm DVC sales for awhile.